InBg Chat Room  

Calendar  
<< November 2018 >>

M T W T F S S
      1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
2627282930   


In Bulgaria: Forums   


 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups    ProfileProfile   ProfileMember List
Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Post Brexit? Will UK follow the Greek example?
 Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    In Bulgaria Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
scasparz
In The Prime
In The Prime


Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Posts: 232

Location: some disaster area within Greece

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:43 pm 
Post subject: ethos, passion, reason
Reply with quote

Was a kid during the colonels junta. My late father used to be a conservative right winger, yet he was afraid of them. This made me afraid of them as well. It is my understanding corruption -a major national issue our days- was much lesser during those times. However their foreign policy used to be utter-mostly childish.

Encouraged by the local CIA branch they staged that ill fated coup against Macarios -the Castro of the Med as the Americans used to call him-, which may have served the US interests well but had nothing to do with the so called 'union' between Greece and Cyprus. Instead it gave Turkey the needed pretext to invade the island and grab 38% of it with a Turkish population being just 18% according to British statistics. This escalated into a major national humiliation and a disaster that remained unsettled to this date. What made things worse had been the US fully supported Turkey versus Greece, while it was found the Greek army -their very own field of specialty- was tragically unprepared to defend the country and it's well meant interests. Was 17 yo by '74 and can still remember the Army mobilization of those days as a parody.

Any comparison with Metaxas, the Greek prime minister at the beginning of WWII simply pales. While for a fact Metaxas was a fascist, still he maintained a battle-worthy army, that won versus Italy in Albania against all odds. As for the colonels they have been just a team of naive losers.

In short just like the corrupt politicians who succeeded them, they screwed up. Their ways differed, yet the outcome was a national catastrophe. As usual.

Oh, what a pleasure is being a Macedon and a Greek. And no this wasn't said by Aristotle.

Instead he may have said verdammt, scheiß drauf. In contemporary German.
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seedy
Golden Oldie
Golden Oldie


Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 6365

Location: Sofia, Dupnitsa, Lincs

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:11 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

An interesting perspective, Mr S.

Sadly I am a little older than you but my memories of The Colonels are a little different to yours: we would regularly sit outside Floka or Zonar's* during the junta and tell jokes about Papadopoulos and Pattakos, but nothing ever happened, apart from laughs and sniggers from any cops or military types who happened to be passing at the time. Having lived through the Occupation and the subsequent Civil War, and lost family during the latter, there was certainly no way that my relations would ever vote for anyone even vaguely to the left of Metaxas - or indeed Genghis Khan Wink. However, there was no-one I knew who had any respect for the ignorant, boorish and parochial "Colonels" apart from them being useful idiots to keep Stalin and the Fellow Travellers firmly north pf the border. I also vividly remember one trip to Crete in those days with my now ex-wife: we met up with a great friend and spent the afternoon drinking tsikoudia with several mates, she being totally unaware of the honour bestowed on her by being allowed to drink in a traditional men-only ouzeri Wink

A bunch of similarly pissed-up friends turned up in the early evening - the local chief of police, the chief judge of the area, a couple of high-ranking army officers and a few lawyers among them. We all piled into several cars and drove unsteadily up to a little taverna in the mountains where we sang Theodorakis songs at the tops of our voices and dined on huge mounds of lamb which were all that remained of an entire herd of sheep which one of the guys had arranged to be rustled for his daughter's wedding a few days previously. Unsurprisingly, no-one was questioned about either the singing of banned songs or the disappearance of the livestock Cool I've heard plenty of stories about people being arrested for a lot less but my suspicion is that the junta and its adherents were more concerned about left-wing opponents and that their arrests had nothing to do with singing and everything to do with Communist Agitprop. Mind you, I also suspect that the junta probably couldn't quite grasp that right-wing intellectuals** actually held them in considerable contempt but were happy to tolerate them if they kept the Leftists under control.

As for the ridiculous nonsense at the Polytechnic in '73 - students "on strike" and rioting in Athens, how unheard of***! Rolling Eyes Well, it was rather too soon after the Civil War to really provoke such Leftist action and in fact all it really accomplished was to destroy the liberalisation that the Colonels has introduced, as well as giving Ioannides a chance to grab the reins of power - and leading directly to the invasion and occupation of Cyprus. Well done, "Patriots"! Evil or Very Mad

*Sadly Both Now Gone, although a fake "Zonar" recently appeared in Athens, I understand.

**No, I don't include myself in that description, in case you were wondering... Wink

***They were doing it when my mother was a student there in the '30s and I don't believe that it was a new phenomenon then, although it's true that the government usually responded with water-cannon and dyed water rather than small arms.
_________________
Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir épuisé
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scasparz
In The Prime
In The Prime


Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Posts: 232

Location: some disaster area within Greece

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:13 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Am glad you did not bear any consequences mate. Problem is a few others had not been this lucky. Yes our colonels were not as brutal as many South American dictatorships, yet they used to be far from an angelic chorus. And places like EAT/ESA -the military police HQ, who had been the praetorian guard of the regime- were not exactly luxurious hotels, where people like Theofilogiannakos, Chatzizisis e.a. used to submit their prisoners to some serious torture. And for the sake of Jesus Spyros Moustaklis was a distinguished army major who previously had fought from WWII and the civil war to Korea and most definitely not a KGB operative.

Of course a number of future politicians like Damanaki, Laliotis just to name a few had their careers build upon the Polytechnic university uprising, having exploited their presence there. The issue is there have been 24 civilians who lost their lives during that day and this provides a very sad point of reference.

This post is not meant to be an attempt to gather the junta victims or report their atrocities and there have been plenty. Point is historically there has never been such a thing as a friendly military junta and the Greek one was no exception.

The April 21st 1967 coup had been launched to prevent George Papandreou from winning the then coming elections with a landslide as it was expected at the time. It ended seven years later with the catastrophe at Cyprus. Unfortunately for us Greeks this was not meant to be the last one.
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seedy
Golden Oldie
Golden Oldie


Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 6365

Location: Sofia, Dupnitsa, Lincs

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:05 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

I didn't know anyone who respected the Colonels' Regime, Mr S - but then again neither did I know anyone who had any action taken against them for laughing at them or doing all those "naughty" things they had decided to ban. As I said, my suspicion is that such action was used to control the Communists/Socialists, who were intent on, at the very least, destabilising the country; the events of the Prague Spring, only a few months after the Colonels seized power, could well be seen as a vindication of their fears and a justification for their actions.

As far as what lay behind the coup itself, it was indeed most likely that Papandreou would win the upcoming elections but there was never a chance that it would be with a landslide. The pretty certain result was that his EK party would have to form a coalition, almost certainly with EDA (alias the banned Commie KKE, which had played such a large role in both the resistance against the Germans and, unfortunately, the subsequent armed attempts to drag Greece behind the Iron Curtain).

The Polytechnic students - and, perhaps, those egging them on - badly misjudged the action that the regime would take. However, my suspicion is that those who were inciting them weren't at all disappointed by the heavy-handed reaction and indeed probably both expected and welcomed it: nothing gains the sympathy of the public like their sons and daughters being beaten up by soldiers, even if those youngsters were being duped by crypto-Commie agitators.

I don't know whether I'd call it courage or stupidity, but it takes a certain frame of mind to riot on the streets not so long after an armed and bloody Communist-inspired civil war, and while the country is being run by the military due to fears of a possible Communist take-over, and expect that there will be no reaction in kind - especially since pretty much every male citizen has been in the army and knows the intellectual capabilities of its commanders...
_________________
Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir épuisé
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scasparz
In The Prime
In The Prime


Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Posts: 232

Location: some disaster area within Greece

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:25 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

There is no way to predict the outcome on elections that did never take place, mate. There were no polls at the time.

As am sure you know George Papandreou had been a centrist as well as a renown anti-communist since at least the civil war, a couple of decades earlier. True EDA had supported him following the unconstitutional dismissal of his cabinet by the king at '65. However whether they would be needed to form a coalition remains very-very doubtful. Fact is EK had won the '63 elections alone with a very comfortable absolute majority, while the odds appeared to be far more favourable for them at the coming '67 elections, that were not to be held by virtue of the coup. In the end, had it not been an expected landslide, there would be absolutely no reason for the army to move. Gets as simple as that.

Fears of a military coup had been circulated in Greece since at least '61, by the time Karamanlis had resigned and left the country using a fake passport. I can see no reason for Papandreou -not my own preference- to form an unnecessary coalition and take obvious risks without any practical gains in sight. All this in view that he was an experienced politician with a clear understanding of the issue.

Post their successful coup, was a major mistake by the colonels that they failed to identify the real source of danger and prepare accordingly. That was despite a number of clear indications eg the '55 September pogrom against the Greek minority of Constantinople coupled by the Cypriot '63 Bloody Christmas affair [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Christmas_(1963)] to name a few. Rather than let NATO cope with any communist threat and focus themselves on our troublesome eastern neighbours, very erroneously they did exactly the opposite, believing blindly and wrongly their US patrons would keep Turkey restrained, which as a matter of fact they never did.
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scasparz
In The Prime
In The Prime


Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Posts: 232

Location: some disaster area within Greece

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:28 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Sorry for being OT on multiple occasions.

Yesterday, scores of US Apachee attack helicopters coupled with a number of heavy Chinook transport ones, as well as a few Greek, had been overflying Platamon on their way to Litochoron to practice at the local army proving ground. Have never seen so many choppers in my life before.

In the past few months, there has been a noticeable escalation in the US military presence in Greece. Do not have a clue on the reason behind, however it is understood this has been in accordance with some kind of a bilateral agreement between the two countries, of which the details have not been much publicized.

In parallel to this, a number of Israeli F-16s have been stationed at Larissa, Greece’s largest air base, where they have been provided with full facilities. Whether a coincidence or not is not known.

What is known is that Cyprus, Israel and Greece do cooperate on their alleged natural gas reserves, yet again the actual details are not public. A number of Greek Apachees were brought to Cyprus to en-strength the local national guard consisting of Greek-Cypriot as well as Greek units.

In the coming days, the Turkish 'research' vessel Barbaros will make an exit during which it is expected to violate the Greek sea shelf causing some kind of an Imia kind warm episode.

seedy looks like something is cooking over the Aegean.
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seedy
Golden Oldie
Golden Oldie


Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 6365

Location: Sofia, Dupnitsa, Lincs

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:18 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

I hope they'll manage to keep a lid on it for a while, Mr S - I'm due to have a flying (Wink ) visit to Thassos soon...

Oh, and best wishes on this very important day! Cool
_________________
Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir épuisé
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scasparz
In The Prime
In The Prime


Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Posts: 232

Location: some disaster area within Greece

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:22 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Seedy I do not expect aliens to come and rescue what we seem unable to do ourselves. For once the inevitable happens -that is Tagip goes out of the way-, both Israel and the US will be very happy to embrace his successors which from our perspective do not appear promising at all. There is no substitute from being self-relying and point is we are not.

Hope your family and you will enjoy staying in Thassos, northern aegean’s most beautiful island.
  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:       
Post new topic   Reply to topic    In Bulgaria Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
 Goto page Previous  1, 2
 Page 2 of 2

 

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
Jump to:   

Powered by phpBB © 2001-2008 phpBB Group

Lastest InBg Forum Postings - The Serious Stuff   
Meeting with the British Community in Yambol and the region Posted By:tonytg806 @ 06:13:14 PM
Need an address for my property Posted By:tonytg806 @ 06:12:11 PM
Radovets property Posted By:essexboy @ 01:08:16 PM
Posting over-the-counter drugs to BG? Posted By:FiDi @ 10:25:12 PM
BREXIT UPDATE MEETING IN VELIKO TARNOVO Posted By:tonytg806 @ 07:38:04 PM
Energo-pro Posted By:zoomzoom @ 12:29:08 PM
NEW Piano Concert 20 November, Sofia Posted By:plevenite @ 07:54:23 AM
Hi from Suffolk Posted By:tonytg806 @ 06:15:10 PM
Hi from Norfolk (just over the border from that Suffolk guy) Posted By:flyingcowman @ 11:37:54 AM
Help with House purchase near Ruse Posted By:ChrisF @ 06:28:19 AM
NEW Christmas based concert for children Posted By:plevenite @ 10:32:27 AM
Post Brexit? Will UK follow the Greek example? Posted By:scasparz @ 02:22:17 PM
Sofia Airport to Bus Station Posted By:Seedy @ 11:39:06 AM
House insurance Posted By:tonytg806 @ 06:00:09 PM
Corn/Wheat Grinder Posted By:tonytg806 @ 10:35:54 AM
tax on savings Posted By:tonytg806 @ 08:50:38 PM
How much for private medical insurance? Posted By:tonytg806 @ 05:30:22 PM
English speaking Lawyer near Silistra? Posted By:Seedy @ 08:30:12 PM
Invalid session Posted By:Seedy @ 09:52:26 AM
Water meter readings Posted By:Seedy @ 09:30:28 AM

Lastest InBg Forum Postings - The Lighter Side   
Who Needs Money For The NHS.... Posted By:tonytg806 @ 06:00:55 PM
Formula 1 Posted By:scasparz @ 03:13:11 PM
Does This.... Posted By:Seedy @ 04:26:15 PM
The "Royle Family" Wedding Posted By:Seedy @ 12:18:47 PM
NEW More "Good" News.... Posted By:Seedy @ 04:47:31 PM
Whats cooking Posted By:Seedy @ 07:35:06 PM
Bad News.... Posted By:Seedy @ 11:11:22 AM
NEW Stand By.... Posted By:Seedy @ 07:37:25 AM
And Some Good News... Posted By:Seedy @ 11:27:01 AM
Baba Vanga Posted By:Seedy @ 10:59:38 AM

The In Bulgaria Free Ads   

In Bulgaria Gallery   
Latest pictures added to the In Bulgaria Gallery. Just click on an image to view a larger version.

Posted By: plevenite

Posted By: Sleepy

Posted By: Sleepy

Posted By: Seedy

Bulgarian Weather   

Click for Sofia, Bulgaria Forecast Click for Plovdiv, Bulgaria Forecast Click for Varna, Bulgaria Forecast Click for Burgas, Bulgaria Forecast


Time  

Currency converter  
Enter Value

Supporters  
Dreams Real Estate Banner



Follow On Twitter  

Ebay Property  

Web design and programming by The IT Place